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> Autocross on FIR East - Sunday Oct 25th, NASA-X registration now open!
Kevin O Neill
post Oct 22 2009, 07:38 AM
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Registered NXC with 18 points.


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Kevin O'Neill
STX
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Brad McCann
post Oct 22 2009, 08:09 AM
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So color me a bit confused...

I tried to register for the last NASA event awhile back. Due to my Sky not having "aftermarket roll protection", I wasn't allowed to play. I looked at the car list and noticed another Sky on there and a few other miatas that I *think* don't have roll bars.

So in the words of Charles Barkley from that Larry Bird and Michael Jordan McDonalds commercial from 10+ years ago... "Hey can I play??"
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Tage Evanson
post Oct 22 2009, 08:29 AM
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QUOTE (Brad McCann @ Oct 22 2009, 09:09 AM) *
So color me a bit confused...

I tried to register for the last NASA event awhile back. Due to my Sky not having "aftermarket roll protection", I wasn't allowed to play. I looked at the car list and noticed another Sky on there and a few other miatas that I *think* don't have roll bars.

So in the words of Charles Barkley from that Larry Bird and Michael Jordan McDonalds commercial from 10+ years ago... "Hey can I play??"


I assume you tried to register for a "high speed" (i.e. HPDE) NASA event. This is a low speed NASA autocross and does not have the same safety restrictions. Yes you can play and so can others with convertibles with no rollover protection. Thanks for asking and clarifying for all!


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Tage Evanson
"Casper - The Friendly Civic"
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MazdaManiac
post Oct 22 2009, 09:25 AM
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So, is there a run group schedule?


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Brad McCann
post Oct 22 2009, 09:28 AM
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And just one more quick classing question...

Back on Page 5ish, there was talk about tunes that do not modify boost settings being a 0pt upgrade. For clarification, is this true?

If its 0 pts, I'm at...

+4 non-oem IC
+2 modified exhaust system downstream from the turbo (exhaust)
+1 mod cat (to downpipe)
+5 FI
-1 -10mm tire size
===NXC +11 and really competitive biggrin.gif

if it is a +10pt, then I'm in NXB by 2 lousy points. I guess someone has to get last place... dry.gif
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Tage Evanson
post Oct 22 2009, 10:12 AM
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No run group schedule until all registrations are in so I can form the groups as evenly as possible.

If the rules state "0 points" then it's "0 points". Sounds like NXC to me.

FYI - ECU's that don't alter boost is a bit of a slippy slope as I'm not sure if I really believe that claim. Why add an ECU that doesn't increase power and with a turbo that's the easiest way to do it. I recall several years back someone running an SCCA event tried to claim that as well and it turns out it was untrue after finding the actual shop that did the install/tune/dyno on it. I'm not saying, you're cheating but if you end up winning NXC, your competitors might want a closer investigation of your car.


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Tage Evanson
"Casper - The Friendly Civic"
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Ben Clement
post Oct 22 2009, 10:29 AM
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Why wouldn't a tune that alters boost be a zero point mod, provided you didn't modify any vacuum lines to do it? The rules only make you take points for changing those lines I believe, and you can do anything with the stock ECU for free.
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phoenixR34
post Oct 22 2009, 10:33 AM
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Ben is correct. When ECU mods/reflashes became a free mod in 2009, the 5-point penalty for turbo cars was added accordingly, assuming people would be changing boost with the reflashes.


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renfield90
post Oct 22 2009, 10:43 AM
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QUOTE (j0oftheworld @ Oct 20 2009, 12:33 PM) *
When I reg'ed it took my "car info" instead of what I plugged in.. so that '97 miata in NXF is actually Tages Accord! smile.gif

The last time I saw Tage's Accord was at FIR East...and I defeated it in the Time Attack. I hope you are prepared to suffer the same fate! ph34r.gif

(Side note: only reason the Celica is doing this one is I don't think there will be any first gear corners...and the car is feeling soooo much better with new tranny fluid in it so I'm hoping it won't grenade on me.)


--------------------
Manfred Reysser
2001 Celica GT - gone to the clearing at the end of the path
2013 FR-S

"As long as my car goes I drive it. I like racing to the limit, first and last." - Gilles Villeneuve
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08scooby
post Oct 22 2009, 11:38 AM
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QUOTE (phoenixR34 @ Oct 22 2009, 10:33 AM) *
Ben is correct. When ECU mods/reflashes became a free mod in 2009, the 5-point penalty for turbo cars was added accordingly, assuming people would be changing boost with the reflashes.



After i read and reread the rules, this is what i was under the impresstion. because my tune done ulter my boost by +4psi. but i wouldnt think it would be fare if i had to take the 5 point hit for forced indution, then have to take another hit for upping the boost that was low from the factory. i mean look at the evoX, i realize they are only 2.0l but they run almost 20lbs of boost stock. my car only runs 11.5 stock, but i do have a 2.5l. so i dont know but the quoted statment above, is how i understood the rules after rereading them like 10 times. smile.gif


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Tage Evanson
post Oct 22 2009, 11:44 AM
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QUOTE (08scooby @ Oct 22 2009, 12:38 PM) *
QUOTE (phoenixR34 @ Oct 22 2009, 10:33 AM) *
Ben is correct. When ECU mods/reflashes became a free mod in 2009, the 5-point penalty for turbo cars was added accordingly, assuming people would be changing boost with the reflashes.



After i read and reread the rules, this is what i was under the impresstion. because my tune done ulter my boost by +4psi. but i wouldnt think it would be fare if i had to take the 5 point hit for forced indution, then have to take another hit for upping the boost that was low from the factory. i mean look at the evoX, i realize they are only 2.0l but they run almost 20lbs of boost stock. my car only runs 11.5 stock, but i do have a 2.5l. so i dont know but the quoted statment above, is how i understood the rules after rereading them like 10 times. smile.gif


You can't compare factory boost levels between cars. Every car is given a base class on many different variables so don't compare apples to oranges.

Fact: All cars with a factory turbo (FI) must take a +5 point hit.

If you're ECU altered the boost level of your car after you were done, then you need to take points for it.


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Tage Evanson
"Casper - The Friendly Civic"
Help support me in the fight against "low performance driving" @ www.nasaaz.com
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Brad McCann
post Oct 22 2009, 12:17 PM
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QUOTE (Buzz65 @ Oct 1 2009, 01:53 PM) *
Wow..something's seriously wrong with the categorization here...

Saturn Sky Redline ('07-'08) NXC 2990 <== This car has the SAME EXACT motor as my car (260hp/260tq) , same tire/rim size AND it weighs less! Also it doesn't have the 7 point penalty that my Cobalt has as designated by the "*".


That is pretty odd...especially since my car looks way cooler laugh.gif

Anyways, I'm registered for NXC. I'm looking forward to the cheater car and the Civic "Race Car" to stomp all over me.

Kevin, whats your stock class? And what rubber are you bringing out?
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civil
post Oct 22 2009, 01:35 PM
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QUOTE (Brad McCann @ Oct 22 2009, 09:28 AM) *
I guess someone has to get last place... dry.gif


Hey that's my job!


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Stephen King - A.K.A. "Sue"

90' Miata - STS
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08scooby
post Oct 22 2009, 03:16 PM
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[/quote]

You can't compare factory boost levels between cars. Every car is given a base class on many different variables so don't compare apples to oranges.

Fact: All cars with a factory turbo (FI) must take a +5 point hit.

If you're ECU altered the boost level of your car after you were done, then you need to take points for it.

[/quote]


its more like comparing oranges to tangerines, but i get your point and i agree with you.
so lets go off the official rules. **this is excact word for word from the rule sheet**

1.3.c.Engine/Drivetrain:
etc...etc...
15)Aftermarket boost controller or modification/alteration of OEM vacuum lines that serve to fuction as a boost controller +4
16)Aftermarket or modified wastegate actuator, wastegate, or vacuum line(s) that serve to control the wastegate actuator function or increase peak boost +3
etc....etc...

1.3.f. No-points modification:
etc...etc...
43)OEM ECU/PCM rerogramming or chip (must use OEM ECU/PCM box/housing/hardware)


I am not tring to aguee in any way, i am just stating the rules. if i am supose to take a point hit for ecu reprogramming that raises boost levels thought resitance in the factory boost controller with the factory lines and fitings, then i will. But you are going to have to write a new rule that states that and then tell me how many points to take, because there isint one. so i dont know how many point to add. now that you fixed my first reg. mistake, i am now in the nxc. so i have 18 more points to add before i would need to move up to nxb. so is this "new" rule going to asess more then 18 points? if not then i would still be in nxc, so i dont need to change anything right?


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2008 subaru wrx
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Tage Evanson
post Oct 22 2009, 03:27 PM
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QUOTE (08scooby @ Oct 22 2009, 04:16 PM) *
1.3.c.Engine/Drivetrain:
etc...etc...
15)Aftermarket boost controller or modification/alteration of OEM vacuum lines that serve to fuction as a boost controller +4

1.3.f. No-points modification:
etc...etc...
43)OEM ECU/PCM rerogramming or chip (must use OEM ECU/PCM box/housing/hardware)


I am not tring to aguee in any way, i am just stating the rules. if i am supose to take a point hit for ecu reprogramming that raises boost levels thought resitance in the factory boost controller with the factory lines and fitings, then i will. But you are going to have to write a new rule that states that and then tell me how many points to take, because there isint one. so i dont know how many point to add. now that you fixed my first reg. mistake, i am now in the nxc. so i have 18 more points to add before i would need to move up to nxb. so is this "new" rule going to asess more then 18 points? if not then i would still be in nxc, so i dont need to change anything right?


This is actually a really good one but let's talk it through.

IMO, the 1st rule is pretty black and white. Your ECU has altered the boost in your turbo system so it's effectively a "boost controller" which is +4 points. The only question is, is it an aftermarket ECU, or is it your stock computer that has been reprogrammed? If it's your stock ECU that has been reprogrammed and it happened to change the power output via any means then yeah, I'd say it's 0 points.

So the clear line to me is where did your ECU come from? Aftermarket (+4) or stock (0)?


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Tage Evanson
"Casper - The Friendly Civic"
Help support me in the fight against "low performance driving" @ www.nasaaz.com
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Ben Clement
post Oct 22 2009, 03:28 PM
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QUOTE (08scooby @ Oct 22 2009, 03:16 PM) *
if i am supose to take a point hit for ecu reprogramming that raises boost levels thought resitance in the factory boost controller with the factory lines and fitings, then i will. But you are going to have to write a new rule that states that and then tell me how many points to take, because there isint one.

have you added/changed a hardware boost controller or modified any vacuum lines? if not, then you don't take any points (other than the standard +5 for being a turbo car). it doesn't sound like you have.
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08scooby
post Oct 22 2009, 03:35 PM
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the ecu is stock from subaru the way the car was built at the factory. i just reprogrammed it and changed the stock boost controller duty cycles. in turn raising boost level by about +4-5 psi, but all stock hardware.


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2008 subaru wrx
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Ben Clement
post Oct 22 2009, 03:37 PM
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QUOTE (Tage Evanson @ Oct 22 2009, 03:27 PM) *
Your ECU has altered the boost in your turbo system so it's effectively a "boost controller" which is +4 points.

I would disagree with calling the ECU a boost controller, even if that is one of its functions. OEM ECU reflashes are free, and if you replace the ECU there's another line for that (+10 for FI cars). I think that implies that "aftermarket boost controller" refers to an aftermarket piece of hardware whose only (or at least primary) function is to control boost, and this is typically done by modifying vacuum lines.
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Tage Evanson
post Oct 22 2009, 03:46 PM
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QUOTE (Ben Clement @ Oct 22 2009, 04:28 PM) *
have you added/changed a hardware boost controller or modified any vacuum lines? if not, then you don't take any points (other than the standard +5 for being a turbo car). it doesn't sound like you have.

Don't put words that aren't there. It does not say a "hardware" boost controller.

It says "Aftermarket boost controller" or[size="5"][/size] "modification/alteration of OEM vacuum lines that serve to fuction as a boost controller". It is one or the other, not both.

The premise is if you have a turbo car and you do a mod to it that increases power via changing boost which is extremely easy to do there should be a modification point hit for that.

UPDATE: Half way through writting this I received some information that adds some clarity to this. NASA realized how difficult it is to monitor/govern aftermarket ECU's (just like SCCA) so they just made ECU's a free mod and then gave all the turbo cars a +5 point hit right off the bat. So I actually believe that "0" points for your ECU is right regardless if it changes boost level or not. I do think they need to update the old rule to clarity that an ECU is not considered a boost controller though.


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Tage Evanson
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Ben Clement
post Oct 22 2009, 04:04 PM
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I think quite a few of the rules need to be clarified, heh laugh.gif

Hardware is implied because software is free.

Now if the SCCA could just adopt this rule in the ST classes...
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