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> May 2nd & 3rd NASA event @ PIR, Testing Waters on a new program...
Tage Evanson
post Apr 15 2009, 02:45 PM
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So most people are aware of the typical open track format, regardless if it's SCCA, NASA, PASA, HSR, Etc. It also doesn't surprise me that there's not a lot of "autocrosser" crossover between Solo and these types of events.

However, if I was to offer a standalone "Time Attack" entry, I am curious how many people would be interested?

The current "Time Attack" product is combined with a full entry (i.e. Four 20 minute sessions + the Time Attack which is basically a gigantic autox with 2 flying timed laps).

The standalone product would be:

* ONE 15-20 min practice session
* 2 timed flying laps (on a nearly traffic free road course)
* Priced at $60-80

So *if* I had this as an option, how many of you would be interested in signing up?


Oh and BTW, registration is open too if you simply want to sign up --> https://secure.drivenasa.com/event/906


--------------------
Tage Evanson
"Casper - The Friendly Civic"
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renfield90
post Apr 15 2009, 03:09 PM
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DEFINITELY interested at that price!!!

Four sessions is a little more than I like to push my car anyhow.

Is this option going to be added to this event? If so, I'll hold off on registering...

EDIT: I'm not in DE3 but if I was I'd totally be all over this.


--------------------
Manfred Reysser
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2013 FR-S

"As long as my car goes I drive it. I like racing to the limit, first and last." - Gilles Villeneuve
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Kevin O Neill
post Apr 15 2009, 03:13 PM
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Since my biggest objection to most track events is that I don't trust idiots on the course who might be next to me (I used to race sport class in mountain biking, and one reason I quit is that riding next to fools is sketchy), your proposal is intriguing. One of the selling points of autox is that the cars are essentially alone on the course.


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Spuds
post Apr 15 2009, 04:26 PM
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QUOTE (Kevin O Neill @ Apr 15 2009, 03:13 PM) *
Since my biggest objection to most track events is that I don't trust idiots on the course who might be next to me (I used to race sport class in mountain biking, and one reason I quit is that riding next to fools is sketchy), your proposal is intriguing. One of the selling points of autox is that the cars are essentially alone on the course.

The idiots that you'll find on the drive home from the track are vastly worse than the guy next to you at the track. No one wants to ball up their own car or yours.


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renfield90
post Apr 15 2009, 05:04 PM
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QUOTE (Spuds @ Apr 15 2009, 04:26 PM) *
QUOTE (Kevin O Neill @ Apr 15 2009, 03:13 PM) *
Since my biggest objection to most track events is that I don't trust idiots on the course who might be next to me (I used to race sport class in mountain biking, and one reason I quit is that riding next to fools is sketchy), your proposal is intriguing. One of the selling points of autox is that the cars are essentially alone on the course.

The idiots that you'll find on the drive home from the track are vastly worse than the guy next to you at the track. No one wants to ball up their own car or yours.

Eh...you'd be surprised. There's occasionally a bad apple or two...a young leadfoot with too much testosterone, adrenaline, and horsepower at his disposal...wait, doesn't that sound like me? laugh.gif

Just kidding, I've got a level head on track.


--------------------
Manfred Reysser
2001 Celica GT - gone to the clearing at the end of the path
2013 FR-S

"As long as my car goes I drive it. I like racing to the limit, first and last." - Gilles Villeneuve
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Tage Evanson
post Apr 15 2009, 05:04 PM
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Manfred, I've got far too many changes I'm already implementing at this event so I will not introduce this change at the May event but I am considering it for future events (hence the testing waters thread). I still need to figure out how to logisically police "just one session". I have a few ideas but need to talk it over with all my officials to ensure they are aligned with the approach. Also I've changed up the HPDE classings so you actually are HPDE3 now most likely (now that I've added HPDE4). HPDE1 and HPDE2 are basically the same level. The only difference is HPDE2 doesn't require an instructor. You would be fine to run in the TA if you wanted.

The concensous seems to be that 4 sessions is simply too much for most autocrossers hence the possibility of this new program since it bridges the gap between:

Solo = not enough
HPDE = too much track time and no competition aspect
HPDE + TA = too expensive just to do the fun part (i.e. TA)


Kevin, This program only addresses one aspect of why I don't think there's much crossover with autocrossers. Your point is valid but I feel that Doug is spot on as well. *I* have far more fear on my daily commute next to SUV driving mom's (& dad's sometimes) on their cell phones and 10 other distractions vs being on the race track.


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Tage Evanson
"Casper - The Friendly Civic"
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renfield90
post Apr 15 2009, 05:08 PM
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QUOTE (Tage Evanson @ Apr 15 2009, 05:04 PM) *
Manfred, I've got far too many changes I'm already implementing at this event so I will not introduce this change at the May event but I am considering it for future events (hence the testing waters thread). I still need to figure out how to logisically police "just one session". I have a few ideas but need to talk it over with all my officials to ensure they are aligned with the approach. Also I've changed up the HPDE classings so you actually are HPDE3 now most likely (now that I've added HPDE4). HPDE1 and HPDE2 are basically the same level. The only difference is HPDE2 doesn't require an instructor. You would be fine to run in the TA if you wanted.

The concensous seems to be that 4 sessions is simply too much for most autocrossers hence the possibility of this new program since it bridges the gap between:

Solo = not enough
HPDE = too much track time and no competition aspect
HPDE + TA = too expensive just to do the fun part (i.e. TA)


Kevin, This program only addresses one aspect of why I don't think there's much crossover with autocrossers. Your point is valid but I feel that Doug is spot on as well. *I* have far more fear on my daily commute next to SUV driving mom's (& dad's sometimes) on their cell phones and 10 other distractions vs being on the race track.

Sounds cool, I'll register for DE3 and get an instructor to ride with me. I'll email you about the discount. smile.gif

And seriously...I've been literally run off the road before on the highway. The most fear I've legitimately felt at the track is usually due to my own mistakes (hint: LATE apex for turn 5 at FIR West!).


--------------------
Manfred Reysser
2001 Celica GT - gone to the clearing at the end of the path
2013 FR-S

"As long as my car goes I drive it. I like racing to the limit, first and last." - Gilles Villeneuve
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Kevin O Neill
post Apr 15 2009, 05:50 PM
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QUOTE (Tage Evanson @ Apr 15 2009, 06:04 PM) *
Kevin, This program only addresses one aspect of why I don't think there's much crossover with autocrossers. Your point is valid but I feel that Doug is spot on as well. *I* have far more fear on my daily commute next to SUV driving mom's (& dad's sometimes) on their cell phones and 10 other distractions vs being on the race track.


Tage, I agree 100%. The worst thing about having had some good driving instruction is that becomes painfully clear that most people on the road are plain dangerous in many ways. And I imagine the NASA program address those issues by having instructors in the car when beginning (Btw, does a 3 day HPDE school at Bondurant count at all regarding NASA events?)

I have thought more than once about NASA track days, but in all honesty, the most likely way I would attend would to do a stand alone TA (at least for starters).


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BWeikert
post Apr 15 2009, 07:10 PM
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I'd be interested in this Tage. It would be a good way to get my feet wet at a lower cost of entry (cost of entry including wear and tear on the car, not just the event fee).



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Brian Weikert
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Brock
post Apr 15 2009, 08:12 PM
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I might be interested depending on my fiscal situation.



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Brock Palmer
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Stargun
post Apr 15 2009, 08:18 PM
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I would sign up for an event like this.


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James Tomassoni
'08 VW GTi
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Dave Munsey
post Apr 15 2009, 08:30 PM
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So for those who have never run with NASA or haven't done so in a long time like me, how many events would they typically need to attend before being able to take part in the Time Attacks? The average autocrosser is used to being timed and I think that there would be more interest in a Time Attack than in a HPDE for them. Also the lower price and lower track time would appeal to many people I believe.


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DAVE MUNSEY
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berny2435
post Apr 15 2009, 08:41 PM
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I would be interested in this, I'd probably even renew my NASA membership!! Probably wouldn't even need to upgrade my brakes past pads laugh.gif poke poke

To me though, the competition part of Time Attack isn't a real seller, track time is. A bonus is that your time is recorded and compared to others.

For conversations points and just so you know Tage, I think you already know this and I know I might be preaching to the choir

1.) Cost is always of concern for the majority of people "wanting" to get on the track or the ones wanting to get on the track more often. I don't think 4 run sessions is too much time for a AutoXr. If your car can last 20 minutes, it can last 4 qty 20 minute sessions. The option to just pay for 30 minutes of track time is something the more squeemish will be more interested in I think.
2.) my main concern for vehicle damage is spins from yourself or others, not playing bumper cars on track with someone that thinks they are in a race. People spin for multiple reasons and I think the noobs spin mainly b/c of lack of experience, driving in their mirrors, not able to adapt to taking corners at different turn ins or speeds (not necessarily being sloppy but not knowing how to react) only with experience do you know how to react safely to spins and others spinning in front of you.
3.) It sounds like your experience level for this standalone Time Attack allows you to run in ANY of the DE groups correct or no? EDIT just noticed the May 2-3 sign in page only allows DE3 + peeps to be in Time attack
4.) What would be the limit on experience to enter the time attack? I think most are going to push hard which should require some experience.
5.) Notes on if these standalone Time attackers are running DE3 and have been passed up there quickly.
5a.) In my mind, DE3 and DE4 are suppose to be the groups where you are comfortable with your car, the track and the drivers around you. Personally I wouldn't want to be driving with a bunch of non-frequent drivers in DE3 b/c in that group I'd be pushing my car and self at least 90%.
5b)If in frequent Time attackers are in DE3 all the time, I think that is a problem waiting to happen. Slower "drivers" (not pointing at AutoXr's) possibly trying to keep up with the faster drivers. Some places I've done HPDE, DE3 guys can be real W2W racers, their cars just aren't fast enough for the race group and or they choose to run with cars that are more their speed like 944 spec, spec miata, ITA, ITB, ITC. Also instructors jump into DE3 at will with some clubs also.

6.) Would DE3 description be?: allowed an extra passing area or two, nothing in corners, always point bye. 4 is the race groups and instructors with clean passing allowed in most areas???


LASTLY
I feel it is very important to get experience under your belt for HPDE before you get solo'd(time attack), I would hope that the new system would keep the level of needed experience up. I also think that having 4 sessions in one day really allows you to learn more about you, your car and how to be a good driver on the track. But if you only do that a couple times a year, I can see how participating in more events (less driving time in each) can actually be of near equal value if not better b/c you are maintaining your skills better.


--------------------
Ryan B. - 98' M3 - STU(underprep)- slowly coming together
Da past - 06' S2000 STR---08' Civic Si STX---06' 350Z track stock---95' K20 6spd Civic SMF - 95' MR2 turbo - 92.5' Talon AWD
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imprezzakc
post Apr 15 2009, 09:02 PM
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I for one would most likely participate in such an event . I like the idea of the single session practice so to speak . Give me track time with minimal car wear . Plus the timed session to actually track the progress of both the driver and the car .


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Travis
post Apr 16 2009, 01:57 PM
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I think Berny brings up a lots of my thoughts as well.

To be honest, I'm much more interested in HPDE/TT/TA type performance driving than AutoX. What's held me up from it so far is...

1) Cost. I can convince the wife that $20-$30 a month for an AutoX is reasonable, but $160 for a single event puts getting started with HPDE's squarely out of my reach.

2) Vehicle Wear/Tear. I daily drive my car and even so, AutoX is pretty forgiving with the wear/tear it puts on a vehicle. If I were to do regular track events however, I could either expect to have to dedicate much more money to fixing things that break (see Cost above), or buy a dedicated track car (again, see Cost above).

3) Experience. I've never attended an HPDE, and while I'd like to think that my AutoX experience would help me to be a safe and courteous driver on course, I know that the track is a very different place than the skidpad. The normal HPDE progression addresses this by first starting me out in HPDE1 requiring an instructor.


I'm VERY interested in the idea of a "TA only" type event because I think its an acceptable stretch of #1 and #2 above to make it worth it for me. My concern however is still #3 (Experience).


--------------------
Travis Berry

2005 Subaru Impreza STi - STU - Sold to a Pennsylvanian
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thouser
post Apr 16 2009, 03:00 PM
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I would be interested.


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j0oftheworld
post Apr 16 2009, 03:19 PM
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You will wear out tires/brakes.. but as far as "being hard on my car" and "I don't want to hurt my baby" type mindsets you don't have to worry.
In high school I used to worry about that stuff.. and if you're out there driving your car hard not abusively you're going to be fine.. trust me! biggrin.gif

Not pointing towards anyone here just an observation I have of people new to track days/racing. smile.gif

At first you're going to be going slow everywhere. I hate seeing people out there who from the green flag they're running "hot laps" on the "racing line" over and over. It's YOUR 20min session.. get some open track around you and explore your talents/car/and the track a little. Work on a few corners and take it easy elsewhere.
I personally like to let my personal limits kind of evolve on their own, not to consciously PUSH beyond my limits each time I do an event. A new car/tuning/parts/alignment etc are always also approached w. caution.

Before you know it you'll be braking hard into a turn, setting up the car, slightly drifting through, exiting hard and there goes your race woody!! ohmy.gif ..cause you know you did it just right!! biggrin.gif



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berny2435
post Apr 16 2009, 05:33 PM
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QUOTE (j0oftheworld @ Apr 16 2009, 02:19 PM) *
stuff.. .


just to clarify, if you didn't pick up what I was puttin down, I was mainly getting my opinions accross on how such and event might need to be run. #1 concern being infrequent track people pushing hard in their practice session with skilled drivers and or pushing themselves too hard for their experience level in general b/c the are in Time Attack Mode! I have about 12 HPDE track days under my belt.

I know when I've done it right. In the past it's typically been people coming up to me after a session saying, what the hell do you have done to that thing.. . 95 civic with 6spd, 210whp @ 2450lbs with driver "Its just a lil Honda" different story now.. .


--------------------
Ryan B. - 98' M3 - STU(underprep)- slowly coming together
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Stargun
post Apr 16 2009, 05:36 PM
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QUOTE (Travis @ Apr 16 2009, 01:57 PM) *
I think Berny brings up a lots of my thoughts as well.

To be honest, I'm much more interested in HPDE/TT/TA type performance driving than AutoX. What's held me up from it so far is...

1) Cost. I can convince the wife that $20-$30 a month for an AutoX is resonable, but $160 for a single event puts getting started with HPDE's squarely out of my reach.

2) Vehicle Wear/Tear. I daily drive my car and even so, AutoX is pretty forgiving with the wear/tear it puts on a vehicle. If I were to do regular track events however, I could either expect to have to dedicate much more money to fixing things that break (see Cost above), or buy a dedicated track car (again, see Cost above).

3) Experience. I've never attended an HPDE, and while I'd like to think that my AutoX experience would help me to be a safe and courteous driver on course, I know that the track is a very different place than the skidpad. The normal HPDE progression addresses this by first starting me out in HPDE1 requiring an instructor.


I'm VERY interested in the idea of a "TA only" type event because I think its an acceptable stretch of #1 and #2 above to make it worth it for me. My concern however is still #3 (Experience).


I have to agree with Travis I have always wanted to do track events but the $160 is out of my price range for an event. Plus you and in tires and breaks and for get it.

A les expensive way to get some track time sounds awesome but I wonder the same thing as the others what HPDE level do you have to be at in order to run in the Time attack. If you have to be HPDE2 or more than I would not sign up for the event being that I have never done HPDE1 and probably wont for a long time. Just to expensive.


--------------------
James Tomassoni
'08 VW GTi
88 Mazda RX7 TII

"The happiness of a man in this life does not consist in the absence but in the mastery of his passions."Alfred Lord Tennyson
English poet (1809 - 1892)
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hatrick6
post Apr 16 2009, 08:10 PM
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QUOTE (Stargun @ Apr 16 2009, 05:36 PM) *
A les expensive way to get some track time sounds awesome but I wonder the same thing as the others what HPDE level do you have to be at in order to run in the Time attack. If you have to be HPDE2 or more than I would not sign up for the event being that I have never done HPDE1 and probably wont for a long time. Just to expensive.


+1, I would LOVE an event like this with just 1 practice session and then 2-3 TA runs at a price of $60. I have been looking into doing some HDPE driving for a long time, but I too have yet to do it because of the $160 price tag. So the question still stands, would we have to get a HDPE1 before we attend an event like this?


--------------------
"Maybe I should just buy a 240 and become a mad tyte drifter." - Hitler
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AZ Region Director
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