IPB     IPB     IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )
Azsolo.com · Results · Registration

Tire Rack

6 Pages V   1 2 3 > »   
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Proposal: Make Open Great Again
HowdyZ06
post Nov 17 2016, 10:16 AM
Post #1





Group: AZ Region Member
Posts: 665
Joined: 27-June 14
From: Chandler
Member No.: 165637



Open was once the greatest run group in the world, but in recent years we've seen it devolve into a fractured image of its former self, slowly dying while trying to hold onto its former glory. There was a time when running in Open meant something, the people of Open were a proud people, but now we see these very same people abandoning that which built them and running to Indexed groups. We've lost our sense of self, our sense of Open. And so I say, it's time we make Open great again!

Proposal:
  • You no longer sign up for Open, it's automatic! Open is an essential right. Universal Open for everyone!
  • RGP for everyone! Yay, more free benefits... but wait, who's paying for all this? Shhh... don't ask questions!
  • You may optionally sign up for an Indexed group in addition to Open.
    • Novice
    • Intermediate... err, sorry, PAX
    • Sportsman
  • Season trophies are award by class... but there's an extra award for winning an indexed group (did someone say free beer? I didn't say free beer, but maybe).
  • While indexed groups are optional and generally self-selecting, you will be promoted to the next up group if you win your current group.
  • TNT still exists for the tin-foil hat types


--------------------
David Howdyshell
2002 Corvette Z06
1999 Corvette, CAM-S(tupid)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
renfield90
post Nov 17 2016, 10:22 AM
Post #2





Group: AZ Region Member
Posts: 2388
Joined: 30-November 05
From: Tempe, AZ
Member No.: 532



You forgot the wall.


--------------------
Manfred Reysser
2001 Celica GT - gone to the clearing at the end of the path
2013 FR-S

"As long as my car goes I drive it. I like racing to the limit, first and last." - Gilles Villeneuve
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
SMeyers
post Nov 17 2016, 10:34 AM
Post #3





Group: Steering Comm., voting member
Posts: 8829
Joined: 6-December 02
From: Glendale AZ
Member No.: 4



Do we get a hat? tongue.gif


--------------------
Scott Meyers
2006 Mazda3S "STS" .......(Really just a Miata with four doors and a trunk......)
Education is important. Race Cars are importanter
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
APEXLVR
post Nov 17 2016, 10:43 AM
Post #4





Group: Autocrosser
Posts: 475
Joined: 25-July 08
From: Tempe
Member No.: 1346



For once, I agree 100% with Howdy. I feel dirty and ashamed.


--------------------
Travis Kelley


2012 Specialized Crux Comp Apex: .917hp / 48.16 ft-lbs at 100RPM


Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jahoney
post Nov 17 2016, 10:53 AM
Post #5





Group: Autocrosser
Posts: 450
Joined: 3-December 15
Member No.: 174480



I think this is a good proposal if it could work. Just don't know how realistic that is. Look how few sign up for Open. I think things would still end up the way they are now. Even if you make Open as a default entry, if people have the option to select an indexed class, I have a feeling people will just switch because that is what they are comfortable with.


--------------------
Josh Mahoney
1990 Mazda Miata MX-5 STS
THE Jahoney
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cwmizner
post Nov 17 2016, 10:55 AM
Post #6





Group: AZ Region Member
Posts: 5106
Joined: 4-February 03
From: Chandler, AZ
Member No.: 93



So trophies would be given based on how all BS cars (for example) finished regardless of anything else? Novices would NEVER get a prize, that ought to keep them coming back! While I don't know you or Travis personally, you two must have thought 205 passed and recently celebrated.


--------------------
Chad Mizner
2006 BS Porsche Boxster
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
HowdyZ06
post Nov 17 2016, 10:58 AM
Post #7





Group: AZ Region Member
Posts: 665
Joined: 27-June 14
From: Chandler
Member No.: 165637



QUOTE (Jahoney @ Nov 17 2016, 10:53 AM) *
I think this is a good proposal if it could work. Just don't know how realistic that is. Look how few sign up for Open. I think things would still end up the way they are now. Even if you make Open as a default entry, if people have the option to select an indexed class, I have a feeling people will just switch because that is what they are comfortable with.


What I'm saying is that everyone is always in open. Then you can also sign up for an indexed group for the fun competition if you want.

QUOTE (cwmizner @ Nov 17 2016, 10:55 AM) *
So trophies would be given based on how all BS cars (for example) finished regardless of anything else? Novices would NEVER get a prize, that ought to keep them coming back! While I don't know you or Travis personally, you two must have thought 205 passed and recently celebrated.


Reading comprehension is tough. They would win NV just as they currently do. Nothing was taking from them.


--------------------
David Howdyshell
2002 Corvette Z06
1999 Corvette, CAM-S(tupid)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
APEXLVR
post Nov 17 2016, 10:59 AM
Post #8





Group: Autocrosser
Posts: 475
Joined: 25-July 08
From: Tempe
Member No.: 1346



1) no, you can't switch out of open. It's mandatory. Think "dual enrollment."
2) you can still choose novice as a category.
3) reading comprehension is cool
4) personal jabs are not cool


--------------------
Travis Kelley


2012 Specialized Crux Comp Apex: .917hp / 48.16 ft-lbs at 100RPM


Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cwmizner
post Nov 17 2016, 11:03 AM
Post #9





Group: AZ Region Member
Posts: 5106
Joined: 4-February 03
From: Chandler, AZ
Member No.: 93



QUOTE (HowdyZ06 @ Nov 17 2016, 11:16 AM) *
[*]Season trophies are award by class... but there's an extra award for winning an indexed group (did someone say free beer? I didn't say free beer, but maybe).



Admittedly my reading comprehension is low, but this to me reads that trophies as we get them today would be by class, BS is a class, so all BS would be lumped together? this extra award that would come from where? would be replacing the current trophies?


--------------------
Chad Mizner
2006 BS Porsche Boxster
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cwmizner
post Nov 17 2016, 11:05 AM
Post #10





Group: AZ Region Member
Posts: 5106
Joined: 4-February 03
From: Chandler, AZ
Member No.: 93



QUOTE (APEXLVR @ Nov 17 2016, 11:59 AM) *
Think "dual enrollment."


would this not confuse things even more? (sorry for the personal jab, all in good fun, but I realize it can easily be misconstrued, my bad)


--------------------
Chad Mizner
2006 BS Porsche Boxster
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jahoney
post Nov 17 2016, 11:05 AM
Post #11





Group: Autocrosser
Posts: 450
Joined: 3-December 15
Member No.: 174480



QUOTE (HowdyZ06 @ Nov 17 2016, 11:58 AM) *
QUOTE (Jahoney @ Nov 17 2016, 10:53 AM) *
I think this is a good proposal if it could work. Just don't know how realistic that is. Look how few sign up for Open. I think things would still end up the way they are now. Even if you make Open as a default entry, if people have the option to select an indexed class, I have a feeling people will just switch because that is what they are comfortable with.


What I'm saying is that everyone is always in open. Then you can also sign up for an indexed group for the fun competition if you want.


So if people were signing up for an additional group (indexed group) to have fun, wouldn't that mean they would have to PAY for additional groups? So for those of you that are PAX fans, you are being forced to pay twice as much if you want to have "fun". hhmmm...not too sure that works out.


--------------------
Josh Mahoney
1990 Mazda Miata MX-5 STS
THE Jahoney
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
APEXLVR
post Nov 17 2016, 11:06 AM
Post #12





Group: Autocrosser
Posts: 475
Joined: 25-July 08
From: Tempe
Member No.: 1346



QUOTE (cwmizner @ Nov 17 2016, 11:03 AM) *
QUOTE (HowdyZ06 @ Nov 17 2016, 11:16 AM) *
[*]Season trophies are award by class... but there's an extra award for winning an indexed group (did someone say free beer? I didn't say free beer, but maybe).



Admittedly my reading comprehension is low, but this to me reads that trophies as we get them today would be by class, BS is a class, so all BS would be lumped together? this extra award that would come from where? would be replacing the current trophies?


From that same BS driver choosing to also compete in PAX1 and winning that as well as winning BS.


--------------------
Travis Kelley


2012 Specialized Crux Comp Apex: .917hp / 48.16 ft-lbs at 100RPM


Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
HowdyZ06
post Nov 17 2016, 11:14 AM
Post #13





Group: AZ Region Member
Posts: 665
Joined: 27-June 14
From: Chandler
Member No.: 165637



QUOTE (cwmizner @ Nov 17 2016, 11:05 AM) *
would this not confuse things even more? (sorry for the personal jab, all in good fun, but I realize it can easily be misconstrued, my bad)


No, no confusion. Novices would sign up for their class and then select Novice. 100% the same thing they do today.


QUOTE (Jahoney @ Nov 17 2016, 11:05 AM) *
So if people were signing up for an additional group (indexed group) to have fun, wouldn't that mean they would have to PAY for additional groups? So for those of you that are PAX fans, you are being forced to pay twice as much if you want to have "fun". hhmmm...not too sure that works out.


No double paying. Not sure why you believe that. Feel free to PM me if you have questions about the proposal.

Guys, the reality is that if you open RGP to everyone, any sort of classing or grouping is all just manipulation of numbers after the fact. This system allows us to keep everyone happy with RGP, have a healthy Open group, and have competitive indexed categories for those that need more competition.


--------------------
David Howdyshell
2002 Corvette Z06
1999 Corvette, CAM-S(tupid)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
SMeyers
post Nov 17 2016, 11:18 AM
Post #14





Group: Steering Comm., voting member
Posts: 8829
Joined: 6-December 02
From: Glendale AZ
Member No.: 4



Easy for us to say, how would Jeff Israel and Jeff Williams deal with the mechanics?

Much to like above, but think simple as possible. Another take:
  1. Open Class is default.
  2. Opt-out Categories, for Novices, Aliens/Sportsman, Ladies, single car Classes (Pax). Eliminate TNT (even the creators disagreed over purpose)
  3. No Pax In Class numbers, only overall Pax or even % of FTD for Class points. Or, a system of Class points as many other Clubs do.
  4. Only In-Class Trophies, as God intended. Anything else is "feel-good"/participation (unless it's a competitive fun Group like Burrows/CSP). However, I do not believe that Trophies are the prime motivator; fun with cars is, comparing with buddies is, improvement is.

A thought I keep having is that there kind of used to be a "requirement" for entering Sportsman, kind of like our days with the "Pro" Category (that paid money). The intent is to separate the seriously dominant drivers in a given Class from the "regulars". I'd suggest that anyone consistently over 940 Pax (or winning Class by many, many points) would have to sign up for Sportsman.

But that would be hard to mandate/regulate. What if all drivers in that Class were 940-960 Pax? Why separate them?

Hmmm.........


--------------------
Scott Meyers
2006 Mazda3S "STS" .......(Really just a Miata with four doors and a trunk......)
Education is important. Race Cars are importanter
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cwmizner
post Nov 17 2016, 11:22 AM
Post #15





Group: AZ Region Member
Posts: 5106
Joined: 4-February 03
From: Chandler, AZ
Member No.: 93



#donothing


--------------------
Chad Mizner
2006 BS Porsche Boxster
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jahoney
post Nov 17 2016, 11:23 AM
Post #16





Group: Autocrosser
Posts: 450
Joined: 3-December 15
Member No.: 174480



QUOTE (HowdyZ06 @ Nov 17 2016, 12:14 PM) *
QUOTE (Jahoney @ Nov 17 2016, 11:05 AM) *
So if people were signing up for an additional group (indexed group) to have fun, wouldn't that mean they would have to PAY for additional groups? So for those of you that are PAX fans, you are being forced to pay twice as much if you want to have "fun". hhmmm...not too sure that works out.


No double paying. Not sure why you believe that. Feel free to PM me if you have questions about the proposal.


Oh, now I have to PM you to participate in this thread but everyone else can continue to post here?? whatever, I'm done with you.


--------------------
Josh Mahoney
1990 Mazda Miata MX-5 STS
THE Jahoney
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
HowdyZ06
post Nov 17 2016, 11:24 AM
Post #17





Group: AZ Region Member
Posts: 665
Joined: 27-June 14
From: Chandler
Member No.: 165637



QUOTE (SMeyers @ Nov 17 2016, 11:18 AM) *
Easy for us to say, how would Jeff Israel and Jeff Williams deal with the mechanics?


Super simple to update. Most of the infrastructure is already there.

QUOTE
Much to like above, but think simple as possible. Another take:
  1. Open Class is default.
  2. Opt-out Categories, for Novices, Aliens/Sportsman, Ladies, single car Classes (Pax). Eliminate TNT (even the creators disagreed over purpose)
  3. No Pax In Class numbers, only overall Pax or even % of FTD for Class points. Or, a system of Class points as many other Clubs do.
  4. Only In-Class Trophies, as God intended. Anything else is "feel-good"/participation (unless it's a competitive fun Group like Burrows/CSP). However, I do not believe that Trophies are the prime motivator; fun with cars is, comparing with buddies is, improvement is.


What you're proposing seems very similar to mine, but a) more difficult to implement and track and b) doesn't address the issue of helping Open. I'm trying to keep it simple and keep it fun. I don't know what value this system adds that the one I proposed would not.

QUOTE
A thought I keep having is that there kind of used to be a "requirement" for entering Sportsman, kind of like our days with the "Pro" Category (that paid money). The intent is to separate the seriously dominant drivers in a given Class from the "regulars". I'd suggest that anyone consistently over 940 Pax (or winning Class by many, many points) would have to sign up for Sportsman.

But that would be hard to mandate/regulate. What if all drivers in that Class were 940-960 Pax? Why separate them?

Hmmm.........


I don't like the idea of mandatory minimums at all. For the most part, the indexed categories do a good job of self-selecting where to be since most guys running 970+ PAX take no glory in wiping the floor with PAX drivers. However, to keep things fresh this is why I proposed the graduation system.


--------------------
David Howdyshell
2002 Corvette Z06
1999 Corvette, CAM-S(tupid)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
HowdyZ06
post Nov 17 2016, 11:27 AM
Post #18





Group: AZ Region Member
Posts: 665
Joined: 27-June 14
From: Chandler
Member No.: 165637



QUOTE (Jahoney @ Nov 17 2016, 11:23 AM) *
Oh, now I have to PM you to participate in this thread but everyone else can continue to post here?? whatever, I'm done with you.


I missed the part where I said you couldn't participate here, but you absolutely have to be kidding me if what I said in any way offended you. Wow... you're (gross over-)reaction is completely ridiculous. I'm so sorry for offering to help.


--------------------
David Howdyshell
2002 Corvette Z06
1999 Corvette, CAM-S(tupid)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cwmizner
post Nov 17 2016, 11:29 AM
Post #19





Group: AZ Region Member
Posts: 5106
Joined: 4-February 03
From: Chandler, AZ
Member No.: 93



QUOTE (kvenisn @ Nov 16 2016, 05:52 PM) *
Copying my post from the event results thread to here and adding some additional thoughts.

IMHO, any effort to look at the question of RGP for Open has to look at our local classing structure as a whole and if a change is desired should be presented to include how other local classes may change or be affected and include some analysis of the pros and cons of the change.

The analysis should include looking at past results and projecting how the change would have impacted the event and series results.

Some sort of poll of particpants could be the helpful as well but would not be the be all and end all of the analysis as there are other factors to consider to include event logistics to include the registration process and the balancing of run/work groups. I would personally give more weight to the opinion of anybody with a work assignment that could be more affected by any changes (i.e. Registration). This is a volunteer run club and I would not be in favor of changes that made a volunteers job more difficult unless they were willing to take it on or we had a replacement person lined up that was willing to take it on. To carry any sort of weight the poll would also need to be properly structured to get insight into all the possible permeatations and would need to be administered in way that captured a broad a sample as possible.

Discussing (debating?) this on the internet is one thing but honestly as an SC member I don't pay close attention to multi page threads with everyone throwing in their $0.02 worth and honestly I do not think this is the biggest issue the club is facing at this time.

Having said all that, the only way it will change at this point is with an SC vote at an upcoming SC meeting and that vote would be based on facts and analysis presented at that SC meeting.



#whosgoingtodothat #donothing


--------------------
Chad Mizner
2006 BS Porsche Boxster
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
HowdyZ06
post Nov 17 2016, 11:33 AM
Post #20





Group: AZ Region Member
Posts: 665
Joined: 27-June 14
From: Chandler
Member No.: 165637



Chad, there's nothing wrong with collecting feedback on the forum. Kevin is very right that ultimately it doesn't make an actionable difference and this still needs to be polled among a larger membership and discussed formally amongst the SC, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with getting the dialogue going.


--------------------
David Howdyshell
2002 Corvette Z06
1999 Corvette, CAM-S(tupid)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

6 Pages V   1 2 3 > » 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
2 User(s) are reading this topic (2 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 26th March 2019 - 01:40 PM