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> Minutes from Fall 2019 SC Meeting
Dave H
post Jun 25 2019, 08:53 AM
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Group: Steering Comm., voting member
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From: Chandler, AZ
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If you have any questions, please let me know. Thanks!

Registration:
The SC has decided to move to Motorsports Registration starting in the Fall of 2019. We thank Jeff Israel for all his hard work in supporting MTC over the years, but the club feels that this is the right time to move.

Replacement laptop for timing:
The board voted in favor of spending up to $500 on a replacement laptop.

SC Incentive:
Incentives for SC members was discussed.

SC Updates:
Chris Groppi was voted in as Trophy & Banquet Chief. Dave Hurt was voted in as Director, Kevin V was voted in as Asst. Director. Changes take place immediately. We thank Scott for his service as Trophy & Banquet chief.

Site Status updates:
AMP is doing maintenance on the skidpad over the summer. No updates from WHP.

Financials:
Club is in good shape. If you have questions or would like more info, please contact Derek.

Trophies:
Spring 2019 trophies are done, Scott is working on distributing them.

Equipment/Truck/Trailer:
Helmets are coming up, will need to be replaced when 2020 snell rating comes out. Trailer good where it is, Kevin to continue to bring new cones from trailer to replace old cones at AMP.

Food Vendors for Fall and Spring:
Pat will do fall, Doug will do spring, Kevin will get with Pat to confirm those dates are all good with her.

Changes to local categories:
In order to simplify things, we will be reducing the number of local categories, starting with the fall series. The new structure will be as follows:
- Open
- Sportsman (pax based)
- Novice (pax based)
- Ladies (pax based)

Novice will retain the same rules for eligibility.

Schedule:
Jim will contact WHP and/or AMP about scheduling a May 2020 event, preferably at the WHP Lake Loop track

Jr Kart:
Kim gave updates, if you have questions regarding Jr Kart program, please contact Kim

Jim's thoughts:
Jim brought up a couple good points, mainly looking into running a Saturday practice day before some of the Sunday events, assuming we can get the attendance and necessary workers to run the event. Jim will explore those date's with AMP.


--------------------
Dave Hurt
Director
Chief of Course
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SSLance
post Jun 27 2019, 08:26 AM
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Posts: 118
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Thanks for the update Dave!!


--------------------
Lance Hamilton
1985 Monte Carlo SS CAM T
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hatrick6
post Jul 9 2019, 12:39 PM
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Member No.: 710



Yes thanks Dave!


--------------------
"Maybe I should just buy a 240 and become a mad tyte drifter." - Hitler
Josh Johnston
AZ Region Director
1997 Honda Civic HX - STC
1995 Nissan 240sx SE - STC
2004 Mini Cooper - STF
2006 Mini Cooper JCW - DS
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Crarrs
post Jul 14 2019, 11:39 AM
Post #4





Group: Autocrosser
Posts: 244
Joined: 27-September 11
From: Surprise, AZ
Member No.: 36121



QUOTE (Dave H @ Jun 25 2019, 08:53 AM) *
Changes to local categories:
In order to simplify things, we will be reducing the number of local categories, starting with the fall series. The new structure will be as follows:
- Open
- Sportsman (pax based)
- Novice (pax based)
- Ladies (pax based)

Novice will retain the same rules for eligibility.


Any more information about the rationale for this? As a PAX2 competitor, I'm concerned about the elimination of the "Street Tire" home for cars otherwise built up to R-comp classes. This leaves me the options of competing on unlevel PAX ground in Sportsman, or as a class of one in BSP Open. From a more macro perspective, the PAX1/2/3 classes seemed to be popular and well-subscribed.


--------------------
Chris Markmann
2004 Mazdaspeed MX-5 - The underprepped BSP project
2010 Mazdaspeed3 - STX Battle Wagon Re-stockified and prepping for GS ILLEGAL STREET RACING, BRO
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DoubleTrouble
post Jul 16 2019, 02:47 PM
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Member No.: 861



QUOTE (Crarrs @ Jul 14 2019, 11:39 AM) *
QUOTE (Dave H @ Jun 25 2019, 08:53 AM) *
Changes to local categories:
In order to simplify things, we will be reducing the number of local categories, starting with the fall series. The new structure will be as follows:
- Open
- Sportsman (pax based)
- Novice (pax based)
- Ladies (pax based)

Novice will retain the same rules for eligibility.


Any more information about the rationale for this? As a PAX2 competitor, I'm concerned about the elimination of the "Street Tire" home for cars otherwise built up to R-comp classes. This leaves me the options of competing on unlevel PAX ground in Sportsman, or as a class of one in BSP Open. From a more macro perspective, the PAX1/2/3 classes seemed to be popular and well-subscribed.


I'm also concerned about the PAX classes going away, especially PAX2. These have been well prescribed in the past.
Maybe you're going to implement a street tire factor as we get forced into other classes where we'd be subjected to a R-tire factor?

LarryB


--------------------
Larry & Mitzi Burrow

07 Red STR NC
94 R Miata...CSP
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Dave H
post Jul 16 2019, 03:12 PM
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Posts: 1241
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From: Chandler, AZ
Member No.: 1122



Thanks for the feedback on this. I'd rather not implement a street tire factor, the goal behind this was to simplify things, not make them more complicated. However, I can see a need for something like the old pax2 category, as the new categories don't cover that. Do you have any suggestions on naming or description that would make it clear what that category would be for? Maybe calling it something like "Sportsman Street Tire". For the description: "A place for car classes that are allowed on R compound tires, but are running on Street Tires (140 tread wear or higher). Limited to Street Prepared, Street Modified, Modified, and Prepared. Cars will be scored based on Pax"

Thoughts?


--------------------
Dave Hurt
Director
Chief of Course
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SMeyers
post Jul 16 2019, 05:27 PM
Post #7





Group: Steering Committee
Posts: 8891
Joined: 6-December 02
From: Glendale AZ
Member No.: 4



OK, here goes.

SCCA offers like over FORTY-EIGHT Classes. Seriously. The idea behind our reverting to a simpler set of Classing Rules was to eliminate the high number of obtuse Classes and Categories. What was offered before was very hard to follow and understand. Encourage people to build for SCCA Classes that exist.

I understand the thought and logic behind Chris's rationale, but at some point we just can't add back "designer" special Classes. This is only one example, but there are (or could be) many others. Then off we go.

For instance, H Street used to be the Ho-Hum 120-160hp sedans, a car than many can afford to own and drive. But these days H Street belongs to 260HP V-6 Sedans with serious suspension and wheel attributes, or 200HP 4 cylinders with a performance suspension and even limited slip. 8" wheels and more.

What should we do for those now-displaced sedans? Not allowed extra stuff to help compete with the newer generation cars (my long-favored solution), and then SCCA even took away their "STF" Class option thus making those previously somewhat competitive cars essentially "orphans". So, they are now re-classed into STS, alongside the likes of the CRX's and Miatas. Oboy. What "fun". rolleyes.gif

Ask me how I know this.

My question, if you do this for the people who choose to run on street tires, what will you provide for any others similarly displaced not by choice wink.gif ? I asked the timing guy to locally restore STF, but was told this was "too complicated". (SCCA Says local Regions can decide to do stuff like that, or this Street Tire Class).

My point........who do you do it for, and who do you not? Best answer is to keep it simple.

My perspective.


--------------------
Scott Meyers
2006 Mazda3S "STS" .......(Really just a Miata with four doors and a trunk......and +500#)
Education is important. Race Cars are importanter
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Don Sattler
post Jul 17 2019, 11:39 AM
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Group: AZ Region Member
Posts: 583
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My thoughts are, eliminating Open and keep PAX classes would simplify things and make the make the trophies more meaningful and affordable.

Just my $.02


--------------------
Don Sattler

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Bob Lob Law
post Jul 17 2019, 03:22 PM
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Group: Autocrosser
Posts: 68
Joined: 8-March 16
Member No.: 175044



Separating females DOUBLES the number of classes. Why not eliminate that? It has always seemed strange to me that they even exist. Other racing and non-athletic sports do not segregate by gender. If you don't want to compete, there is always TNT.


--------------------
Todd A.
2004 Focus SVT
HS
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SMeyers
post Jul 17 2019, 03:34 PM
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Group: Steering Committee
Posts: 8891
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From: Glendale AZ
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Pretty sure TNT goes away too. It should.

Most who ever entered that here in the past had no clue what it was for, and many now don’t know it stands for “Test and Tune”. Added it back in the day because San Diego had it.

I have no issue with a Ladies Paxed Class. They can run Open, or their one Paxed Class.

Guys also can run Open, or their one Paxed Class

Novices can run Open, or their one Paxed Class.


Very simple to understand. 😎



--------------------
Scott Meyers
2006 Mazda3S "STS" .......(Really just a Miata with four doors and a trunk......and +500#)
Education is important. Race Cars are importanter
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Bob Lob Law
post Jul 17 2019, 06:24 PM
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Group: Autocrosser
Posts: 68
Joined: 8-March 16
Member No.: 175044



QUOTE (SMeyers @ Jul 17 2019, 04:34 PM) *
Pretty sure TNT goes away too. It should.

Most who ever entered that here in the past had no clue what it was for, and many now don't know it stands for "Test and Tune". Added it back in the day because San Diego had it.

I have no issue with a Ladies Paxed Class. They can run Open, or their one Paxed Class.

Guys also can run Open, or their one Paxed Class

Novices can run Open, or their one Paxed Class.


Very simple to understand. ��


Every open division has a ladies equivalent. Its twice as many. Or do we not do that locally?


--------------------
Todd A.
2004 Focus SVT
HS
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SMeyers
post Jul 17 2019, 07:10 PM
Post #12





Group: Steering Committee
Posts: 8891
Joined: 6-December 02
From: Glendale AZ
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QUOTE (Bob Lob Law @ Jul 17 2019, 06:24 PM) *
Every open division has a ladies equivalent. Its twice as many. Or do we not do that locally?

Ah, I understand what you're saying now. No, locally we do not offer "one for one" parallel Ladies Classes. Just the previous one (or two) Ladies Paxed Categories. Nationals and all larger SCCA Regional Events absolutely true.

I try to mentally position myself back into the shoes of someone very new to this sport, imagining what that looks and feels like today, as compared to how it was when I first started. I've spent a lot of time both at events and communicating here with newer people, trying to help them understand what all of this PAX stuff and blending of Classes really is. Many of my prior postings reflect that effort.

I believe that our prime directive and efforts should be directed at the newer drivers. And note this part......ESPECIALLY BRINGING MORE LADIES INTO THIS SPORT.

Makes great sense to "us". But not to them. We've been exposed to all of this in many cases for years. We forget how intimidating this can be.

Pretty much everyone understands "what Class your car is in" means. You can look it up. But then toss in both our "blended" Paxed Grouping (based upon good logic, but still a tangent from good old-fashioned "What Class is my car in"), added to SCCA's convoluted Classing nuances and it gets to be a challenge quickly.

I submit, for the benefit of the majority (especially newer drivers), we just stick as closely as possible to basic "by the book" SCCA Classes. Just figuring those are a challenge all by themselves.

(But if you add back STF, NOW you're talking...... wink.gif wink.gif wink.gif )


--------------------
Scott Meyers
2006 Mazda3S "STS" .......(Really just a Miata with four doors and a trunk......and +500#)
Education is important. Race Cars are importanter
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Crarrs
post Jul 21 2019, 12:47 PM
Post #13





Group: Autocrosser
Posts: 244
Joined: 27-September 11
From: Surprise, AZ
Member No.: 36121



QUOTE (SMeyers @ Jul 16 2019, 05:27 PM) *
OK, here goes.

SCCA offers like over FORTY-EIGHT Classes. Seriously. The idea behind our reverting to a simpler set of Classing Rules was to eliminate the high number of obtuse Classes and Categories. What was offered before was very hard to follow and understand. Encourage people to build for SCCA Classes that exist.

I understand the thought and logic behind Chris's rationale, but at some point we just can't add back "designer" special Classes. This is only one example, but there are (or could be) many others. Then off we go.

For instance, H Street used to be the Ho-Hum 120-160hp sedans, a car than many can afford to own and drive. But these days H Street belongs to 260HP V-6 Sedans with serious suspension and wheel attributes, or 200HP 4 cylinders with a performance suspension and even limited slip. 8" wheels and more.

What should we do for those now-displaced sedans? Not allowed extra stuff to help compete with the newer generation cars (my long-favored solution), and then SCCA even took away their "STF" Class option thus making those previously somewhat competitive cars essentially "orphans". So, they are now re-classed into STS, alongside the likes of the CRX's and Miatas. Oboy. What "fun". rolleyes.gif

Ask me how I know this.

My question, if you do this for the people who choose to run on street tires, what will you provide for any others similarly displaced not by choice wink.gif ? I asked the timing guy to locally restore STF, but was told this was "too complicated". (SCCA Says local Regions can decide to do stuff like that, or this Street Tire Class).

My point........who do you do it for, and who do you not? Best answer is to keep it simple.

My perspective.


I totally understand the logic behind simplicity in the classing structure. Once the 3 PAX structure got broken out into 3 identical Novice classes, we were off the deep end in regard to overcomplication.

Specifically regarding PAX2, I think it's worth keeping something of that type around for people that want a home to compete with cars built to xSP classes (not such a high bar for many street cars to clear...) and above, and not be cornered into buying Hoosiers to run competitively in a local region. Keeping a local cost-effective class for these cars will let people bring more-modified cars and continue to have fun. If my options are to show up to get my ass handed to me in Sportsman because I'm on street tires, or race myself in BSP Open, the fun level drops significantly.


--------------------
Chris Markmann
2004 Mazdaspeed MX-5 - The underprepped BSP project
2010 Mazdaspeed3 - STX Battle Wagon Re-stockified and prepping for GS ILLEGAL STREET RACING, BRO
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SMeyers
post Jul 21 2019, 02:04 PM
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QUOTE (Crarrs @ Jul 21 2019, 12:47 PM) *
I totally understand the logic behind simplicity in the classing structure. Once the 3 PAX structure got broken out into 3 identical Novice classes, we were off the deep end in regard to over-complication.

Specifically regarding PAX2, I think it's worth keeping something of that type around for people that want a home to compete with cars built to xSP classes (not such a high bar for many street cars to clear...) and above, and not be cornered into buying Hoosiers to run competitively in a local region. Keeping a local cost-effective class for these cars will let people bring more-modified cars and continue to have fun. If my options are to show up to get my ass handed to me in Sportsman because I'm on street tires, or race myself in BSP Open, the fun level drops significantly.

Chris, I totally understand what you are saying. I get it. You typically "Real Pax" about 890-915 (which screws you for Sportsman). Usually there is no one in your BSP Class. Tough spot.

Look at mine. I typically "Real Pax" about 916-930 here (and I'm already on Street Tires). SCCA brought 200-260HP cars into H Street (some with limited slip and 8" wheels), which screwed cars like mine. We used to be able to go to STF, but that was eliminated, because it wasn't popular enough for SCCA at a NATIONAL Level. So now I've been forced into STS against CRX's and Miatas. Locally they refused my request to resurrect STF. Just like you.

In NASA-X (NASA Autocross) I'd get allowances to make up the differences between me and the new H Street cars. That would be a great solution for me, and by the way, for you. Give up tires, and you'd be able to drop a Class Level. Or add more stuff. Like that. I'm 400-500# heavy for STS. Give me R Tires, or suspension. Something.

But, SCCA does not operate that way. I'd do that in a heartbeat.

So what am I doing? I'm running against a National-level CRX, and seeing how close I can get. BUT, I'm also running against my old H Street Guys on my home spreadsheet. I'm running against friends in other Classes by raw times, on my home spreadsheet. And I'm comparing my raw time percentages against the top local drivers to gauge my performances from event to event. I have REDEFINED what autocrossing fun is to me. That is no longer controlled by SCCA, or PAX. I have fun running PCA Events, in their catch-all "X" Class.

So, it's just the way my personal cookie crumbled. I'm making due, and actually having fun. Focusing mostly on raw time percentages vs my designated benchmark drivers.

I still favor staying mostly with SCCA Open Classes locally, as planned, despite my own woes. I like my Mazda3, it's a lot of fun to drive, and I will not just sell it to buy a car that SCCA pretty much mandates I have to have for any given Class.

Hope you and others understand. Making up specialized "pretend" classes for special needs is something that would be a bit of Pandora's Box kind of thing. smile.gif


--------------------
Scott Meyers
2006 Mazda3S "STS" .......(Really just a Miata with four doors and a trunk......and +500#)
Education is important. Race Cars are importanter
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Crarrs
post Jul 21 2019, 05:21 PM
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Group: Autocrosser
Posts: 244
Joined: 27-September 11
From: Surprise, AZ
Member No.: 36121



QUOTE (SMeyers @ Jul 21 2019, 02:04 PM) *
QUOTE (Crarrs @ Jul 21 2019, 12:47 PM) *
I totally understand the logic behind simplicity in the classing structure. Once the 3 PAX structure got broken out into 3 identical Novice classes, we were off the deep end in regard to over-complication.

Specifically regarding PAX2, I think it's worth keeping something of that type around for people that want a home to compete with cars built to xSP classes (not such a high bar for many street cars to clear...) and above, and not be cornered into buying Hoosiers to run competitively in a local region. Keeping a local cost-effective class for these cars will let people bring more-modified cars and continue to have fun. If my options are to show up to get my ass handed to me in Sportsman because I'm on street tires, or race myself in BSP Open, the fun level drops significantly.

Chris, I totally understand what you are saying. I get it. You typically "Real Pax" about 890-915 (which screws you for Sportsman). Usually there is no one in your BSP Class. Tough spot.

Look at mine. I typically "Real Pax" about 916-930 here (and I'm already on Street Tires). SCCA brought 200-260HP cars into H Street (some with limited slip and 8" wheels), which screwed cars like mine. We used to be able to go to STF, but that was eliminated, because it wasn't popular enough for SCCA at a NATIONAL Level. So now I've been forced into STS against CRX's and Miatas. Locally they refused my request to resurrect STF. Just like you.


I get what you are saying here, but I don't think the situations are directly comparable. The SCCA killed a class that you car was running in; a single class. PAX2 is a local category that pulls cars in from across 10+ classes to race eachother on level street tire ground. Like I said in prior posts, this category was popular, and fun place to see a variety of well-prepped cars racing eachother on cost-effective tires. I don't think I'm anywhere close to the minority in saying that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to bring Hoosiers to AMP unless you have aspirations to run nationally (myself and most others do not).

If the region decides killing the non-R-comp category is the right thing to do, so be it. I suppose I'll be running BSP Open on my own and will attempt to make it to 3 events this series to claim a participation trophy instead of continuing to try and chase down Larry and Kevin.


--------------------
Chris Markmann
2004 Mazdaspeed MX-5 - The underprepped BSP project
2010 Mazdaspeed3 - STX Battle Wagon Re-stockified and prepping for GS ILLEGAL STREET RACING, BRO
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SMeyers
post Jul 21 2019, 05:40 PM
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Maybe you just need another Mazda3?😉😉😉


--------------------
Scott Meyers
2006 Mazda3S "STS" .......(Really just a Miata with four doors and a trunk......and +500#)
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Bob Lob Law
post Jul 21 2019, 11:47 PM
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I will say that I think the SCCA system of "prep level" is a terrible way to organize classes and the NASA "performance points" system is plainly better. PAX is just a backwards attempt to bring all classes to the same level and that is an admirable impossibility. It should be treated as a fun add-on. PAX 1/2/3 and Novice 1/2/3 was basically just a half-assed way to use PAX. The idea of using PAX for car handicapping but not for tire handicapping seems silly. I think that the new streamlining of the PAX classes is an improvement, except that I would allow everyone to enter both their open class plus PAX as Howdy suggested before he left. This would solve the issue of empty open classes. Informal classes like the CSP Challenge are always welcome.


--------------------
Todd A.
2004 Focus SVT
HS
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SSLance
post Yesterday, 08:14 AM
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QUOTE (Bob Lob Law @ Jul 21 2019, 11:47 PM) *
I think that the new streamlining of the PAX classes is an improvement, except that I would allow everyone to enter both their open class plus PAX as Howdy suggested before he left. This would solve the issue of empty open classes. Informal classes like the CSP Challenge are always welcome.


That is an interesting idea... Would be interesting to run in my CAM T class for points or trophies hopefully and still show up on the sheet with the PAX class just to see how I'd stack up if I ran in it. Doesn't really fit into the "simplifying" mode though and I get that as well.

I raced for 5 years in a Region that only used "National" classes and worked hard to get my Region to implement a CAM class before CAM was even a thing, so I totally understand the want and need for a class for those cars that do not have a class they can be competitive in (I was racing my car against 4wd Evos on slicks in SM). We built the CAM class Regionally and Nationally and look now at how well it is attended across the Country, sort of a build it and they will come deal.

I guess the steering committee needs to try to figure out if the elimination of the PAX classes will run attendees off vs keeping them will help retain or bring new members in. Tough call. I know this, as someone recently new to this region, the regional PAX class structure is VERY difficult to understand at first if one has never been involved with it before.


--------------------
Lance Hamilton
1985 Monte Carlo SS CAM T
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Scott Urich
post Yesterday, 09:50 AM
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I won’t lie the reason I started running PAX only was because I have people in my own class with illegal mods, which made it not fun anymore and there doesn’t seem to be any regulation. As far as simplifying the classes being local I’m fine with anything that we do mainly because I’m just out there to have fun anyways, enjoy seeing you guys once a month, seeing new faces and I’m just using local events as t&t for national events which I plan doing more of.


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Scott U
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