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> Class Explosion
fahrvergnugen
post Nov 3 2019, 02:40 AM
Post #1





Group: Autocrosser
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I just purchased a 1985 Scirocco from a long time autocrosser, Ross Meyer. It is well prepared and fun to drive.

So, I thought that maybe I should enter it in an upcoming AZ Region solo event.

But then I looked at today's classes and WTF......?

Are we kidding...? Back in the 1990s there were minor suggestions to modified and/or add maybe a couple of new classes. Anybody who tried that was rebuked because they were trying to create a special "my class"...

Decades later I cannot grasp the range of "street" and other classes that have resulted today. Near as I can tell we now have a massive number of classes to reward competitors who could not either enter or compete back in the 1990s. What has changed? The message back then was that you either had to accept the classing structure or go elsewhere.

The hypocrisy of this should be obvious to those of us who had supported the SCCA Solo program as far back as 1990.

The good...maybe there is some new class of many which might let me enter a car with some mixture of mods.

The bad...I might actually have a modified car which has no chance....

Same old issue with the SCCA since the late 1980s.....pick and choose who will win....


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Mark Shaw
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APEXLVR
post Nov 3 2019, 09:21 AM
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Wait, is it "Same old issue with the SCCA since the late 1980s.....pick and choose who will win...." or is it a total change from the 90s? It can't be both, can it?


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Travis Kelley


2012 Specialized Crux Comp Apex: .917hp / 48.16 ft-lbs at 100RPM


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SMeyers
post Nov 3 2019, 01:21 PM
Post #3





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QUOTE (fahrvergnugen @ Nov 3 2019, 02:40 AM) *
I just purchased a 1985 Scirocco from a long time autocrosser, Ross Meyer. It is well prepared and fun to drive.
So, I thought that maybe I should enter it in an upcoming AZ Region solo event.
But then I looked at today's classes and WTF......?

Sorry, Mark, but you apparently have misread the current list of SCCA "I" or "My" Classes.

"WTF" Class is not scheduled to appear until maybe next year. So, you'll have to wait a few months. wink.gif wink.gif wink.gif

HS was where the Scirocco would have started (back when H Street didn't require 220+HP and V-6's), but then would have moved to STF with a few typical mods.......except SCCA then cancelled that Class due to low NATIONAL entries, so now you'll have to choose STS, where you get to run against CRX's and Miatas. rolleyes.gif

Or, do what I do, and look forward to entering "WTF" which is kind of where I feel I already am. more_cowbell.gif teasing.gif beer.gif


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Scott Meyers
2012 Honda Civic Si - H Street
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Dave H
post Nov 3 2019, 01:26 PM
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I like the idea of adding a "wtf" class 😁 but yeah, looking at the list of classes now, it is a bit silly...


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Dave Hurt
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SMeyers
post Nov 3 2019, 01:35 PM
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QUOTE (Dave H @ Nov 3 2019, 01:26 PM) *
I like the idea of adding a "wtf" class 😁 but yeah, looking at the list of classes now, it is a bit silly...

IMO, SCCA National is doing the smaller local Regions no favors with the proliferation of specialized Classes in recent times.

Mark S is lamenting the days when there were maybe twenty total classes, and Classing was much simpler and straightforward. Newer cars came out, placed them into the basic existing Class set, and let the chips fall. Quit trying to make everybody (i.e. Manufacturers) happy.

Right now encouraging people to run the Open Classes is made difficult locally with soooooo many "designer" classes.


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Scott Meyers
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hatrick6
post Nov 3 2019, 05:37 PM
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QUOTE (Dave H @ Nov 3 2019, 01:26 PM) *
I like the idea of adding a "wtf" class 😁 but yeah, looking at the list of classes now, it is a bit silly...


Agreed, and agree having soooo many classes in Solo is now rather nerve wrecking, especially for beginners, it needs to be scaled back.


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"Maybe I should just buy a 240 and become a mad tyte drifter." - Hitler
Josh Johnston
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1997 Honda Civic HX - STC
1995 Nissan 240sx SE - STC
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freakin_elrod
post Nov 3 2019, 07:09 PM
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If you have input on what you think the SCCA should do or not do, write a letter https://www.crbscca.com/
The worst they could tell you is "Thank you for your input" . With that in mind, if you do write them have some substantial data to back your claim and not "oh this mad sucks" and so on. While it wont guaranty change, it will give folks an idea of the climate they are dealing with which may push for change at some point.


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Sid Elorde
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S. Roberts
post Nov 3 2019, 08:19 PM
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QUOTE (freakin_elrod @ Nov 3 2019, 07:09 PM) *
If you have input on what you think the SCCA should do or not do, write a letter https://www.crbscca.com/
The worst they could tell you is "Thank you for your input" . With that in mind, if you do write them have some substantial data to back your claim and not "oh this mad sucks" and so on. While it wont guaranty change, it will give folks an idea of the climate they are dealing with which may push for change at some point.


Or just send SCCA Inc. a big wad of money and they will create a WTF class to your specifications....... laugh.gif





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Sharon Roberts
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freakin_elrod
post Nov 3 2019, 08:42 PM
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laugh.gif laugh.gif


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Sid Elorde
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hatrick6
post Nov 3 2019, 09:05 PM
Post #10





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QUOTE (freakin_elrod @ Nov 3 2019, 07:09 PM) *
If you have input on what you think the SCCA should do or not do, write a letter https://www.crbscca.com/

I did, nothing came of it, was bummed sad.gif


--------------------
"Maybe I should just buy a 240 and become a mad tyte drifter." - Hitler
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freakin_elrod
post Nov 3 2019, 09:27 PM
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I did as well but in my case, I and a few of my competitors nationally wrote letters and provided data logs and various info to get a certain allowance added for our class and surprisingly it was approved. It took having substantial data to get it moving though and like I said not a personal opinion for something like that to happen. Sometimes it is luck of the draw though, but I hear a lot of bickering in grid about classing and what not and for the majority when I ask, "have you written a letter to the SEB?" Some dont know how to go about it, others have and seen both yays and nays from letters written, but most dont care to do anything.


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Sid Elorde
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Bob Lob Law
post Nov 3 2019, 09:48 PM
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Our new registration system has a pile of extra classes that are not even real, making it look even worse than it is (and also missing my class that I'm pretty sure is real).


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Todd A.
HS Focus SVT
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freakin_elrod
post Nov 3 2019, 09:59 PM
Post #13





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QUOTE (Bob Lob Law @ Nov 3 2019, 09:48 PM) *
Our new registration system has a pile of extra classes that are not even real, making it look even worse than it is (and also missing my class that I'm pretty sure is real).


That is a whole other issue that I agree with that needs to be fixed, and its growing pain. What I dont understand about MSR is that for national events, the classing seems to be correct, but for our local stuff, it's like its something completely different and just like you said missing classes and classes that dont even exist anymore. I wonder where the disconnect is?


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Sid Elorde
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Spuds
post Nov 14 2019, 10:36 AM
Post #14





Group: AZ Region Member
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QUOTE (freakin_elrod @ Nov 3 2019, 07:09 PM) *
If you have input on what you think the SCCA should do or not do, write a letter https://www.crbscca.com/
The worst they could tell you is "Thank you for your input" . With that in mind, if you do write them have some substantial data to back your claim and not "oh this mad sucks" and so on. While it wont guaranty change, it will give folks an idea of the climate they are dealing with which may push for change at some point.


For everyone discussing/complaining about the classing system that National defined, this is explicitly written into the rules Section 1.1:

Vehicle classifications (e.g., Section 3.2) are not mandatory. Regions should use classing structures which are best for the development of their programs.

If you think it needs to change locally, then change it. Go nuts.


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Sandy (Doug) McSanderson (Rowse)
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SMeyers
post Nov 14 2019, 03:28 PM
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QUOTE (Spuds @ Nov 14 2019, 10:36 AM) *
Vehicle classifications (e.g., Section 3.2) are not mandatory. Regions should use classing structures which are best for the development of their programs.

If you think it needs to change locally, then change it. Go nuts.

I did request, locally, the addition of the recently deleted STF Class, that SCCA National found under-subscribed.

The answer was "No". Changes, even locally, take work and programming, and are not that easy to accomplish. smile.gif


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Scott Meyers
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Nokones
post Nov 14 2019, 07:21 PM
Post #16





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I think the Street Prepared Category is a dying dinosaur and the SEB needs to eliminate the category. There are other categories the Strret Prepared cars can easily migrate to other than Prepared or Modified. The non-American cars can migrate to the Street Modified Category since, the entire category has been mostly subscribed by non-American cars, and the American made cars can migrate to CAM.

If you look at the numbers of the entries in the Street Prepared classes at the Nationals for several years, the entries are dwindling. It's time to eliminate an outdated category.


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Kenny Mitchell
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SMeyers
post Nov 14 2019, 08:59 PM
Post #17





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QUOTE (Nokones @ Nov 14 2019, 07:21 PM) *
I think the Street Prepared Category is a dying dinosaur and the SEB needs to eliminate the category. There are other categories the Strret Prepared cars can easily migrate to other than Prepared or Modified. The non-American cars can migrate to the Street Modified Category since, the entire category has been mostly subscribed by non-American cars, and the American made cars can migrate to CAM.

If you look at the numbers of the entries in the Street Prepared classes at the Nationals for several years, the entries are dwindling. It's time to eliminate an outdated category.

This has the makings of a fine letter. Know that SCCA has quite the history of pretty much NOT eliminating Classes, or if done, immediately replacing with one or two more.

Next, add three or four years of empirical data illustrating your points, and then get forty or more supporters to send in letters of support. THEN youíll have some chance. And Iím not kidding.😉


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Scott Meyers
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Nokones
post Nov 15 2019, 06:10 AM
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I've done that twice. I provided a spreadsheet showing all the numbers for the past 10-15 years and both times, I got the same response "Thank You for submitting your letter". I wasn't surprised by the results. I was hoping that the SEB would take a hard look at the subject but, it appears that they didn't or won't.

I know how the system works because I used to be the "Chairperson" of the Street Prepared Advisory Group (SPAG) for many years. SPAG gets the letters submitted by the club members and the SPAG committee members make their comments/recommendations and forward their comments to the SEB. A majority of the time, the SEB just rubber stamps the respective committees recommendation and they publish their usual canned response "Thank you for submitting your letter" in the next issue of Fastrack. During my tenure, club members that submitted a letter would receive a letter from the SEB explaining either their suggestion was approved or considered or disapproved and why it was disapproved.

I do understand why the SEB just rubber stamps most of the respective committees' recommendations. The amount of work that both the respective committees and the SEB have is beyond imagination and WAY above what anyone can handle in a short period of time. These committee and SEB members do have full time jobs and families, and the work those members put in is commendable. Unless a person serves on a committee no one will even have a clue what the work load is.



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